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midland parrots

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    Ibstock, Leicestershire
  1. midland parrots

    Is wing clipping always unkind?

    Rubytoo I read your post with great interest and respect and take note of all of your points, and can I just say very well put accross and explaind.. Caron-J I assume that you have seen what foxes do to lambs and chickens, I have unfortunately had the pleasure of picking up all the carcases. Not one of my happiest days But that's another debate.
  2. midland parrots

    Is wing clipping always unkind?

    You haven't got a clue about me. I probably made more noise than african football crowd when the scored the other day. What was done.... nothing On the bird trade. It is because other people want to try and close it down. but all I am saying is that we need to look at the big picture. And of course I asked earlier in the debate. We all complain as though noboby has ever bought a bird
  3. midland parrots

    Is wing clipping always unkind?

    Could be my age. lol
  4. midland parrots

    Is wing clipping always unkind?

    Fair comment and taken on board. The reason I say that to David and Greg that "I live in the real world" is this If they got there way and stopped breeding, they would not only deprive people of their rights but kill generations of breeders Of course I feel that we need to control the situation better, and if you think about it, even imported birds could be brought into the country but under strict rules and regulations. By stooping breeding we would close down not only the shops that sell birds but the companies that produce, cages, toys, foods, and it goes right down to transport Deliveries of goods, so I think that instead of helping to get out of the mess the country is in, we would be causing more problems. again not only in this country but around the world. I know a chap who set up his business doing the packs for people buying and selling house, the government changed that and put him out of a job overnight, so someone who has tried to earn a living and put all his money (which most people in business do) into his business. His wife was part of the business and did all the paperwork so she no longer had a job either. So from running a business proper well run business overnight he is unemployed and now has to sign on the job centre, his wife has gone to clean at a local factory in order that they can pay their way. That is the sort of thing that will happen if you get your way but in a far bigger scale. We support two local charities who desperately need the help by giving a them an amount of money from every bag of food we sell, It might not be a fantastic amout but as Teso says, every little helps. So the charity would lose the support and it goes on and on. There are not enough people to enforce the law or in fact really know enough about it, and as I said earlier it is a case of, how do you prove whether the bird has suffered or not, how do you prove whether the diet you give your bird, or in fact any animal is the right one. There are dogs with allergies and need special diets, does it help, are they any good, does the courts know if they are or not. I don't know, my dogs are, in my opinion ok on the diet they get here, I am sure that some experts , or so called experts would say they are getting a poor diet. So as I say, wher do you start and where to you stop, That's why I feel it is a non starter, because there are too many IF's and But's That said thereneeds to be laws in place to stop some on the antics that happen. I remember going to a Parrot Society show, There was a chap there with a green wing Macaw in a cat box, I asked if he was selling it, and he said he had sold it and the buyer was meeing him there, about two hours later the bird was still under the table in the cat carrier. What was done about that.... probably nothing. so the bird had travelled from god knows where kept in a cat carrier all day and if the buyer did turn up then he would be travelling again to god knows where. So if our own authority can't do anything or doesn't appear to have done anyhing where do we go from here. I am certainly not against rules and regulations and that is why we give a Free 30 day insurance with our pets that are sold. But like everything It needs to be done correctly
  5. midland parrots

    Is wing clipping always unkind?

    Can I just use one phrase David Please Never under estimate my intelligence. You appear to want to change the goalposts to suit, Now you are only mentioning the effects on young birds, when did the debate move from all birds to young birds only. No wonder everyone gets lost. Of course you are entitled to your views but you really need to take on borad "There is Not conclusive evidence yet. And probably never will be. Question: When the tests are carried out, do they use birds that have been clipped by the scientists,? or birds that have been clipped by A.N. other? I am sure that you, will have like most us, the greatest respect for Irene Pepperberg, Alex was clipped an never able to fly. Alex died of a stroke or heart attack, nothing to do with wing clipping. Irene has probably done more extensive tests than anyone else and yet she clips her birds. It is a law that cannot be implemented in many areas, because if it could be proved that by trimming wings the bird was caused pain and suffering then you would have every court in the country full 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Furthermore what do you do with all the birds? People who have a smallholding Clip chickens, ducks etc. So where do you start and where do you stop. You say that you pick out the parts which you regard as misleading or innaccurate. What I have said id a fact of life, The act is a shambles because the implementing of it can never happen, It won't work. The act is used only in extreme cases and until.
  6. midland parrots

    Is wing clipping always unkind?

    The animal welfare act work with what we are debating. WHY NOT? My opinion. To implement any rules or laws, you need everyone on the same wavelength. We can't even implement the use of mobile phones with drivers. How many people do we see driving with a phone stuck to their ear. The problem is, again in my opinion it is so open ended, Nothing is clear. Regaring ensuring that the animal has a good diet. Define good diet, Now I may think that by giving my birds Harrison's is a good diet, the chap down the road may think that by giving his bird a seed mix he is giving his bird a good diet. So who is right and who is wrong, Can the regulations say that I am right or wrong or that the other chap is right or wrong. So Diet must be defined, but of course every food producer will tell you that their food os better and more nutritional that any other, Authors of books will tell you to feed one sort od diet and another book will totally contradict that. Gem (have you noticed I am spacing this out so that you can read it easier) lol lol If you speak to any animal inspector, again they have different views. Usually they avoid the subject. Why don't they come into me and say you are causing that bird suffering because you have trimmed his wings? Because they don't know if the bird has been caused any suffering, They can't come up with enough facts, because there isn't enough facts there. As with dogs Greg, You say that they should not be docked, My first springer spaniel was docked by the breeder, who would you believe is actually a judge at dog shows, The pups were never docked. Again though, Have you seen the mess of a working dogs tail when it had been out in the shoot. My dogs are pets so I don't need to worry about that issue, So what do we do,? Stop dogs working? I don't know, so if you dock the tail it's cruel but if you let the dog go as a working dog then I personally think that when you see the state of their tails that is ten times worse. Do we stop everything, to do that is wrong you or I have no right to deprive anyone of their sport or hobby. Of course we need to ensure that animals are not mistreated, but don't you think on things like wing clipping you will never implement any law, because.... we go back to the old point. There aretoo many different opinions
  7. midland parrots

    Is wing clipping always unkind?

    David You quote one line but don't come up with the facts, you have done this on numerous occasions throughout this debate, Always remember that there are always 2 side to every coin, You have a dig at me, and I get comments passed that I am being negative. On the contrary. I am being very honest. The animals rights act, as with quite a few of our acts is really just a shambles, and I'm sure that you won't argue with that. When you make an act it has got to be either black or white and if they were the we would not be having this or any debate. We are very lucky in Leicestershire because we have the authoritiescome and visit regularly, some counties they take the pet shop money and the inspectors are never seen again. Unfortunately that may change because of the cuts within the council. Which in my view is very sad. I note that you generally pick out one sentence from my post and try to contradict it. Give the fact, the true facts and both sides please
  8. midland parrots

    Cage Sizes Help

    Kings cages are back in the country, very good cages, not the cheapest in the world but you get what you pay for
  9. midland parrots

    Is wing clipping always unkind?

    [quote It would be interesting to know how many of the people who think that wing clipping is acceptable agree with tail docking or shock collars ? MP, are all your birds clipped or is it just the Macaws ? You know I think these debate are wonderful, Why? because there is always someone who throws a spanner in the works, from clipping to docking. What a wonderful comment, I bet (me being one of them) never even gave that a thought because we were too tied up trying to fight our corner on clipping, lol lol I don't suppose it stops the dogs from running though. I have three springers, lost the dad last year as he had a stroke, bless him, he came from a breeder and was docked, we rescued a little girl that had been really badly treated and on the vets reccomendation we had the boy castrated as he though the girl was too weak to be done at that time however we were two or three weeks too late and ended up with 9 pups, kept two and another two for nearly 6 months and when I let them go I sat and broke my heart, but at least they had gone to a good home. Back onto the main subject No! not all our birds are clipped there are I think 6 that aren't but I should actually use the words Trimmed rather than clipped, Our birds have not been butchered and in real terms they can still fly if they want to but can't (unless there is wind) get the height, that doesn't mean to say that I have not had to walk 30 yards up the garden to bring them back, and of course because I trim both wings evenly they actually glide down and don't crash land. David..... Perhaps this will start a whole new debate. and can I just say this. It is great that so many members have got involved in this one about clipping because it is always, I feel great to have other peoples views and opinion, NO Matter whether we agree or disagree with them. So my attitude is... if you have a view or opinion tell us, lets not get personal BUT respect each others points of view, there is always a lot to be learned, On the animal welfare act.... Wait for this one.. This will upset some members lol lol Item ( It's need for a suitable Diet and Item (E) It's need to be protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease. Item ( Our lot, well 70-80% of them are on Harrison's We feed them 70% Harrison's and then at night they get, perhaps, fruit & veg, pasta, potato and spicy mix or good old seed, to top them up, Item (E) Oh for goodness sake pass go without collecting any abuse lol You could say the by clipping the wings the bird doesn't suffer any injuy and of course because he can glide down then there is no pain or suffering, disease is always a dodgy one because we all know thatbirds can have disease for a long period before something triggers it off. Very much like cats ( they all have the cat flu virus, and something as simple as travelling can trigger it off) Sorry Gem, perhaps print it off and read it in bed, ha ha
  10. midland parrots

    Is wing clipping always unkind?

    Greg. Are you telling me that you have never bought a bird. We are members of FSB, we looked at doing a similar thing to you but the solicitors came back with all the down points, which are the ones I pointed out. We were getting people wanting to give us birds and of course we just couldn't take any more, the solicitor pointed out It's ok but you have no control and by the time and with the cost of going through the civil court system, either the bird or you would be in your grave it takes that long, You run a business, writing, selling your services etc. We run a pet shop. so whats the problem? And you may not believe it but I refuse more people taking a parrot than I sell to. Diane cringes sometimes when I talk to people. Had a lady come in and ask if we had any baby parrots for sale, I asked what sort of parrot she was looking for she replied "Just one that Talks" I sent her to toys R Us to get one and pull the string from its rear end. We have many issues in common but as I sometime you nor I will be able to change and if we do change manage, what would the consequencesbe to small and even large business, the hobbiest, and possible the economy. Some things do need changing but I don't see it in our lifetime. The import ban perhaps and again this is only my opinion has perhaps caused more harm to the birds than good, and you and I both know that thereare people bringing birds in through the back door, via countries that we don't have an import ban with. Sorry gem, I am very passionate about these creatures and they are our life, ( like most members, so don't think I am having a go) Just remember if you come and see me bring a sandwich, because it won't be a five minute stop.... lol lol So on the contrary Greg I am NOT opposed to everything you say perhaps, it is just how you say it. I know your opinion on breeding, selling, etc etc, but without getting into a big debate I probably agree with a lot of your issues but unfortunatel we live in the real world, That is the world we live in, we can't change that, I know that you want to try and change things and I agree with you in the pet trade there are a lot of things need changing but unfortunately we have what we have,
  11. midland parrots

    Is wing clipping always unkind?

    Net. I take on board your comments and perhaps you are right, I hate emails and text messages because sometimes we misinterpret them and they come over in the wrong context, but you are right and what I cannot understand is that we cannot accept that other people have views and opinions, Some members have obviously have taken on board or rehomed an unwated or problem bird. Fair play to them Parrot behaviourist, define what that is, You can live until you are 250 years old and you will never understand them. Nor a lot of creatures, how many pet dogs have turned and attacked someone for no reason whatsover. and we have people that say can understand them. We have 15 parrots that are rescued or rehomes, I don't have major problems with any of them, some are a little aggressive some are a little shy, the orange wings are all noise, if you pick them up the right way they are like babies in your hand soft and silly, You don't need to be call yourself a behaviourist to know your own birds. We as parrot owners generally know our birds and can read them like a book, I'm sure most of you will agree that reading and understanding your bird isn't rocket science. If we feel that we need to do something to keep the bird safe and more able to control then that is our decision. We have that right. On the subject of clipping, you know, the subject that started all this. I have done a little research (in between the vat return) and if you pick up a book on parrots most not only agree with clipping but actually tell you what feathers and how to clip, These books are by very respected and well known authors. I also noticed that Greg has put up his fostering conditions ( hope you pay for advertising on the site, lol) Only one thing to say It wouldn't stand up in a court of law, and in fact wouldn't even probably get there. If somone fostered a bird and clipped it or sold it on, what would you do?. Just take this as a scenario, Bird (or any pet for that matter) is fostered the new owner sells the bird or animal, what can you do if the owner won't let you into the house or, and won't tell you who he has sold it to. how do you find the animal, how do you prove it was sold, person could say another member of his family are looking after it. The whole situation is out of your control, the police wouldn't get involved because there is no crime commited and a solicitor would tell you that you haven't got a hope in the world of winning the case in a civil court. (Although having heard about solicitors they probably would take your money and waste everyones time) Of course you would always like to think that you have checked the foster home out, but people sometimes are not what they seem and circumstances change, I know a chap who had a parrot and due to a fall out with his wife needed money to pay his car repair, he sold the bird on to a friend at work just to get the money to keep his car on the road. His friend had the bird for 4 weeks and wanted to sell it to me because although he liked the bird (well the colour as it was a blue and gold macaw) he couldn't stand the noise. so nobody can ever be 100% sure that the animal is going to the right person, Quite frankly we don't even know our neighbours, we perhaps think we do but we don't know what happens behind closed doors.
  12. midland parrots

    Is wing clipping always unkind?

    Where is the real world for parrots, hasn't man and machine taken it away from them, as we have with other animals
  13. midland parrots

    Is wing clipping always unkind?

    That is what I have been saying all along, we live in the real world. People have been keeping birds since the begining of the world, or just about, some in very poor conditions I'm afraid. Things have got better over the years, of course they have. but why should we take away the enjoyment of people and the birds. It doesn't , matter what animal/pet we have tjhere will always be a reason why we shouldn't have it. You only need to look on the parrot forums to see how many people have a parrot, or more and give these creatures a great life. The very first person on this tread was unsure whether to clip and wanted some advice. We in our wisdom and in my opinion have gone way off the beaten track and come up with all the scientific reasons for this that and the other, and sometimes we need to understand that our opinions my not always be right. whether we like it or not. When we look at the science side of it let me explain this. Our breeder purchased a pair of Scarlet Macaws, The female had laid eggs so he was told. To double check we sent blood and feather samples to a regonised company to get the dna done. It came back as two cock birds, We questioned this and were told that they were correct, at this stage the breeder was on the phone asking for his money back and wanting to have a duel with the seller, the seller was surprised and went on to say ok I will pay to have the vet check them out. In the meantime I thought it best to send another couple of sample off but used a different name just in case we had got it wrong, we ensured that the samples came from the correct birds and sent them off, came back two cock birds. The birds were taken to an avian vet and would you believe that we had a cock and a hen, so the seller was correct. Furthermore the breeder has had five young from the pair, that's scientific if ever I saw it. Of course we need to go forward but we need to get it right. I noticed that the admin have put the subject up for vote and use the words intimidated, this is not what should happen on a forum, no one should feel as though they are uneasy making a post. that's my point We are now begining to get more members post because they perhaps are feeling better about doing so maybe because they feel that they are not going to be bullied
  14. midland parrots

    Aviary and bird advice welcomed... please!

    I assume that your long shifts are during the day, You prbably do this but leave the tv or radio on, may just help a little
  15. midland parrots

    Is wing clipping always unkind?

    Hi Madmudmob Thanks for posting the links. I have spoken to John on numerous occasions but we agree to disagree, lol I have noticed that the angle of the thread has changed somewhat and in fact now we are having a debate and NOT a DICTATE If you read the first post on this thread the last paragraph was actually just a comment ...... I Question and then it became a full blown scientific matter. My point is that all members, like you and some others have done, pass on your thoughts or views. I have my reasons why I wing clip, members have their reasons for not clipping. What we must do in my opinion is to respect those views, irrespective of whether we think they are right or wrong, sometimes when you look at other peoples views you actually think about it and if you feel that they have a point, no matter for or against you can take it or leave it. but everyone should be allowed to have their say without fear of being ridiculed. Your logo Share knowledge ~ Pass on experience ~ Keep learning is in my opinion an excellent phrase. and a must for all forums We never stop learning, but to learn, we do need to listen, which I'm sure you'll agree. We should never lose sight of the fact that when people get bullied just because othersdon't agree with their views quite frankly is NOT ON. I am always open minded and listen to what other people have to say, I don't always agree with it but there may be one part which I take on board, as I said earlier in the thread every day is a school day. If you buy a book on computers they are all very much of a muchness, buy a book on parrots and it's like Wow!! what do I do, everyone says different things. My opinion for what it's worth is that we bring our parrots up the way we want to, providing they have a forever home, are loved and cared for and are healthy, they don't ask for much out of life but give so much in return. I notice now we have a vote on wing clipping. My opinion pretty pointless, Just have a discussion but allow people to make there own mind up and not be bullied into it
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